What are the features of the ideal text, how do we achieve a text (serious high school level text) that is fun, and engaging, AND educational?
We started with reading strategies, drifted into purposes for reading, morphed into purposes for writing and finally writing style for purpose!
From Orion: I think that the only difference is in the format of the information. The reason that a text book is written is to educate, whereas the purpose of a storybook is to entertain. Hence, the differing styles. If, for example, a math text were written in a story style, it would be more conducive to "inactive" reading. The dry format makes it difficult to read for fun, making need for more than just what one was doing for distraction. However, if a story were written in a dry textbook style it would be vary ineffective as a distraction. This would be because the format and style could detract from the plot and the characters. I think that a history textbook, written as a story would be ideal, of course the course would also have to include a text book for a fuller knowledge. I know that this was a little of topic, however I think that it is important to think about what the book is designed for, not just how one reads it.
From Amanda: Of course, now we have to ask, "is it possible to write a math or science text book that is fun and engaging and all those other things?" I think the name hiSTORY certainly takes it in that direction all ready. The Oak Meadow Ancient Civs book combines the two well, (for the level it's written at), and we have a couple of others that work that way. Could you write a Biology text that would read more story like?
From Alex: I think that one could write certain aspects of a biology book in an engaging story manner, but other parts would be neigh on imposable to convey in that manner. Has anyone watched "What the Bleep do we Know"? This movie tries to do something like that. I think that to be able to truly connect which a story there must be characters for us to empathize with and know, even if these characters are not human they are anthropomorphized and caused to be human with human feelings that we can empathize with, thereby allowing us to connect with them. I think this would be difficult to do in a biology or math textbook. How would it be done?
From Amanda: So, now I'm picturing little math symbols chatting with each other about what happens when they are mixed up with numbers and other symbols. It's starting to look like a soap opera in my head... EEK!!!!!
From Orion: If a text (say Chemistry for example) was written in a style conducive to Evaluation and Connection (again examples), would this make it also easer to do all the other "active" things too? It would certainly be much more fun to read.
I think that the fun of all studying is connecting it all together, like a puzzle. So if a, perhaps, series of text of, say, all the core classes were built to take information from one another, this would necessitate reading "actively" to some extent, and would not stumble upon the problem of forced anthropomorphism. I think that this would be a way to write a text in an engaging manner. The connection between the topics more than in the the reader and the character would be the intriguing part. This interconnection of the information may not be interesting to others, but I think that this would be great. Also this is not strictly the form of connection that is used in "active" reading, but I thought that this was pertinent none the less. This has already been done to some extent with the Oak Meadow books and other books I have not used, if others know about some such books I would enjoy reading them at some point.
The biggest difficulty in connecting books is ability levels. Take for example the 8th grader who is ready for Chemistry but not yet more advanced literature/language concepts. Some publishers do connect, and most teachers (at elementary and some middle school levels) do as well. I've always wanted to put together our own texts (preferably as pdfs on disk), but getting permission to use the works of others would be daunting at best. Impossibly improbable in reality.
ReplyDeleteBut, I have not given up hope. So, what we need is a text that connects the subject matter to real life and the subject matter to other "courses"? Let me know, and we'll work on it! Won't help our current students much, but our current students could begin writing them for the future students, and maybe we could all make a fortune at the same time!!! I wonder if Oak Meadow would be interested in publishing, or maybe re-selling?
What about, for example, a History of Science type book that teaches the progression of science, and the science itself, at the same time covers world history. The Science topic would get more complex as history advanced, so as the understanding capabilities of the pulp increased, science would evolve as time passes. This "coevolution" of the brain and the topics would have to take some time, requiring a long commitment to this program. Would this be possible, or desirable, or already tried?
ReplyDeleteWould this History of Science text include the progression of all fields of science simultaneously, or just one. If only one then how would the other fields be taught, and if all, then would the course progress with the history, or the level of science, and what science would be introduced first. I think it would work, slightly better with math: teach the basics, Roman Numerals with Rome, Pythagorean geometry with Greece (you would have to introduce the Cartesian coordinate plane here), then move on to higher subjects, as they were "discovered", maybe moving into a small portion of physics in the end. With this system, you would not have the diversity of topic issue, and you could progress the course more linearly.
ReplyDeleteThere are History of Math and Science books, but I don't think they teach the topics along with the history. I'm not sure you could do that comprehensively in the time that any one course has. Courses specifically on the history have been done. I'm pretty sure that texts/courses like that would interest only people already interested in those topics. Or, do you think that offering the history angle might interst non math folks and get them involved??? What we really need to figure out is what an "Ideal Text" would be for the masses.
ReplyDeleteI think that this kind of comingling of the Math, Science, and History would have to go on for longer than just one year. Depending on the depth and skill level involved, it is possible that it could be the biases for a full four years of high school. I think that this could perhaps work best for home schooling students or small school, where there could be a lot of planning and discussion between the teachers. To expound on the original example, and maybe clarify, when in history we are teaching about Greece, in the math part of the course we are learning about the Pythagorean Theorem, and in science we are learning about the basic astrology and medicine, at the level that the Greek scientists knew. This would lend continuity to the ideas. I think that the kind of lesson described here would only work for motivated students who wanted to learn.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea in the second to last sentence of Amanda's post. I think that our history text does this in some form, connecting English and history. I think that this connection could work just as well, if not better, with science/math and history. Weather people will function well with it is an individual learning style kind of thing. I think that if one has learned before in an environment with strictly separated classes it would be confusing. However, if these kinds of connections were what the student was trained to think like, it would be desirable. This would necessitate this kind of thinking to start in early grade school. Of course the depth of teaching would change and things would be repeated are the student was more capable of learning more indepthly. This may not be "ideal" for the masses but it would be better than no continuity what so ever.
Well, of course there are "masses", and then there are "massive masses"! Here of course, masses are small, but there can still be a great variety in abilities. How do we handle the progression of situations?
ReplyDeleteWe tend to cover American History, World History, Geography and Vermont Studies in alternating years, with something like this Ancient Civs tossed in to the mix occasionally. Could we do a history/science/math connected course this way? What about the student that joins in 10th grade? How do they fit in?
I think the concept is really cool, I just can't figure out how it would work in real time.
Maybe the courses would need to be separate, but they would solidify knowledge. Kind of like what's happening with Dante, he is referencing things you have covered in history already, and you will be learning about Dante's time at the end of the history course (probably) the courses aren't concurrent, but they are connecting. That has to be better than nothing. If a History of Math or Science (or combined) was offered before or after the times were covered in an actual History course, it would strengthen the students' ownership of the info. Yes? No? Then, it would lead to philosophy! All the best Greek and Roman scholars were poets and philosophers right?
Wow, my head is fuzzy again!
I think this "program" would work best in a year-round type of school, where a more continuous flow of ideas and course work could be kept.
ReplyDeleteI would, of course be divided by ability not age, this is where, I think, homeschooling would be best, because these issues could be avoided.
Perhaps it would be a "rolling" series of classes, starting with four different ability classes, then as the "highest" class left/graduated the second to highest class would move to become the highest and a new lowest would be made.
The idea presented in the last paragraph of Amanda's latest post is certainly valid, and excepted. Though not as good, classes could be more separate. It could be that this combination of class would increase the enthusiasm as it adds an element of connection to the needs of life, esp. for history classes.
The history would have to be World History, but to get American History the classes could "zoom in" on the country, and, say, study Thomas Edison, the light bulb and electricity.
Think of some texts that you have really liked. What did they do specifically to make you enjoy it? Was it simply the material, was it the writer's style? Or, take a look at several different texts for the same subject (we've got probably at least 4 different Algebra texts) and compare/contrast.
ReplyDeleteNext, what is important to have in a text vs. a book about a topic?
We seem to be talking in general about a specific topic, namely that of core classes. Would enrichment or foreign language classes be included? I think this would not be very practical, especially the way some of them are conducted in our environment, but this idea could be greatly supplemented by certain enrichment classes or it could ONLY several enrichment classes, except this might limit it... Just another option.
ReplyDeleteWow, I'm just joining in and I'm hugely impressed with the level of conversation.
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts are of the "wouldn't it be nice" variety when it comes to thinking that one text or pre-made package of texts could do it all,but in my experience, it never quite works out. You all talked about the challenges of trying to create something that would be totally comprehensive, and at the appropriate learning level. And then there are the detractors who will come in and say source material is the only way to go so my take on all this is that the ideal text is... a university library.
I think of a "text" as more of an informational piece, one with questions for thinking about. A "book" brings to mind something to be read, perhaps for fun, or for information, but it lacks guiding questions and problems, depending on the topic.
ReplyDeleteI think that the idea of having a university library is great. However, the text is a compilation of all the information in that library. Certainly having a library to supplement is a necessity.
O.K., so now we need to put all of a University Library's information into one text? That would be a little tough to bring home and read, and we would need to reinforce the desks!
ReplyDeleteI've got to go back and re-read the entire thread, but I think we are moving towards a progressive "system" of texts. Remember Saxon has done that with math (granted with a couple of glaring omissions and errors in the 8th? book onward), and you found the repetition necessary BORING.
Let's consider a North American/American History course as example. I'm going to re-read all the other posts and see what I want to say next. Be back soon!
Amanda
What about the idea of this http://www.genomicsdigitallab.com/home.html (reveiw at http://www.genomicsdigitallab.com/downloads/Parents_Overview.pdf), but as a larger scale (and focused more on education), entire course learning program. With the technology and computers of today a highly accurate, graphics-intensive game-like atmosphere of almost every core-subject could be achieved in a highly engaging way. Studies of history and literature would be easily accomplished in an RPG format, the instructors could even be NPC's, controlled or audited by the teacher of the course. If the education was integrated well with the "storyline" of the game this might work very well. Imagine playing a game as Richard the Lionheart during the crusades, and learning though the actions you make as him the historical "facts" (as much as history can be fact) about his crusade. If the game/text was built well one would have fun playing and in doing so learn about the armies, strategies, technologies, housing, and more. This interactive RPG of history could encompass a World History course, or U.S. history, of even VT history.
ReplyDeleteOne of the glaring problems with the idea presented by Alex is the need for an amazingly well mapped world. I think that a RTS game -- in the style of Medieval 2, Total War -- would be better; a game in which one is in the omnipotent point of view. This would stop the need for excessive mapping. This format would be more able to view more happenings at a time, making a more in depth study possible, due to the shorter minimum amount of time required in each area of "game-play". This format would also be more accepting of the "text" part of the course. There would, obviously, need to be a text book to go with the virtual experience, also this would require a well trained teacher, and computer capabilities for all students and for the teacher. The logistics of this course would require more then those of others; however, it would be easier to accommodate all areas of learning, without making an overlarge text. Perhaps this idea could even be basted on Empire Earth, a game in which (apparently, as I have not played it) the play's civilization progresses through the ages.
ReplyDeleteThe game would follow the early Americans as they came from Africa, crossed the land bridge, and progressed until the "invasion" of European people, the earliest contact with the Vikings could be mentioned, with the advent of powder weapons, a link to the creation of those would be added, either a reading or another interactive part of the "game".
This is just one path, if one goes to Indonesian instead of America, other history happens.
This "game" could be updated with "patches" and expansions with ease, an obvious advantage over a book.
To respond to Amanda's last posting: the Saxon texts have extra repetition that is not needed.
This conversation is very exciting… imaging learning in an interactive and technologically-centered format is a goal that the “educational community” strives to understand at a deeper level. There is an overwhelming amount of research that documents cognitive development (how we think) as well as how learners respond to technology. So to imagine such a learning format/game is an idea that has generated much excitement among cognitive researcher as well as technologically minded individuals like you.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct that to put this into a real classroom with average teachers and students would mean that the persons using this technology need to be capable and that the technology should be user friendly. However, I think this is a whole different conversation. Thanks for the engaging “blog”.
could someone tell me wut this blog is a about?
ReplyDeleteThis blog is about how to provide students with the best "text" or information possible. First we started talking about what an actual book would need, now we are into a discussion about how to build a computer based game that teaches as well as a text and teacher and class!
ReplyDeleteAlso TJ if you go up to the very beginning of the conversation, your mom planted the seed saying:
ReplyDeleteWhat are the features of the ideal text, how do we achieve a text (serious high school level text) that is fun, and engaging, AND educational? This thread was started in a different topic, relevant posts were copied here...
We started with reading strategies, drifted into purposes for reading, morphed into purposes for writing and finally writing style for purpose!
So inessence everyone was discussing the purpose and style of writing between fiction and non-fiction as well as the reason why a writer writes; for what audience?
Mrs. Baskette
It would be cool to be abal to play a game(rpg)for class.
ReplyDeletedid i spell abal right??
or is it abale? able? abel? abele?
anyway the game is cool!!!
I would, however, like to return to the text itself; the discourse about the game is good, and will be developed outside this blog, but I also would like to talk about the content of the TEXT itself.
ReplyDeleteIn this response, I will be talking about a text as non-fiction. I feel that at the very basic level, a reader can use a text to gather information. It should be written with valid and relevant information in order for one to pursue ideas, make connections, and possibly develop deeper ideas. It essence it is a basic place to pursue knowledge.
ReplyDeleteWhen comparing different levels of writing, a more sophisticated text (again, still non-fiction) is hopefully more engaging to the reader. It is pleasant to read informative and relevant information, which is written in an engaging style and with a strong voice. This we have discussed in our Language Arts class. The sophisticated text should “stimulate” the brain in a meaningful way as well as enable the reader to pursue knowledge.
It is hard not to consider subject matter when thinking about the ideal text. This can be very subjective when comparing one reader’s taste to another’s. How does this affect the ideal text?